VCDQuality Forums - 2.35:1 to 1.85:1

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-- 2.35:1 to 1.85:1 (http://www.vcdhq.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=52708)

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-02-2005 06:24 AM:

2.35:1 to 1.85:1

next

what is the easiest way to convert to 16x9 from 2.35:1 releases....most of the time its from 480x480 letterbox releases but occasionally itd be dvd compliant mpgs at 720x480?(i think)...... im not worried about cropping the edges....i dont want to strech it into place....

i was playing around in tmpgenc for a bit...but all i did was strech the cropped 1.85 video back to 2.35...
what should i set source ar at in the advanced settings(i had 16x9 display)?and arrange method in the clip menu(i had center keep ar).....

id rather use canopus anyway...so if there is a template there i didnt see let me know also....

looter

__________________
zooted adj : 1. under influence of drugs: relaxed, excited, or euphoric from taking illegal drugs, especially marijuana ( slang ) 2. intoxicated: very intoxicated ( informal )
looter n. : someone who takes spoils or plunder (as in war) [syn: plunderer, pillager, spoiler, despoiler, raider, freebooter]

Posted by J Fresh on 01-02-2005 06:38 AM:

um.....what?

__________________

Posted by President on 01-02-2005 06:56 AM:

There is no specific template for it, and although it's not particularly difficult, it's a pretty bad idea to do it, as you would lose quite a bit of resolution.

You would essentially be zooming in on the 16:9 area of the 2.35 release, which already doesn't use the full 480 vertical resolution, and you would resize that up to fit the screen. If it's letterboxed within a 4:3 fullscreen, you are looking at around 270 lines of vertical resolution being resized up to 480.

It's not a bad idea if you are encoding for a lower resolution format like VCD, but not a good idea for DVD.

Do you have a good reason for wanting to do this, or...?

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-02-2005 01:56 PM:

high again pres

4:3 would zoom into the full 480 and that might not be worth it...but 1.85 would still be letterboxed...just not as much....theyre for my kid on her 19" tv which sucks with 2.35.....so after we watch em on mine i want to zoom em cause she hates the "really skinny movies".....since its for a 19" i dont think too much quality loss would matter too much....especially for a kid

looter

Posted by J Fresh on 01-02-2005 05:12 PM:

just use tmpgenc and under..fuck im not opening it...some settings there a full screen option.

__________________

Posted by President on 01-02-2005 05:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
high again pres

4:3 would zoom into the full 480 and that might not be worth it...but 1.85 would still be letterboxed...just not as much....theyre for my kid on her 19" tv which sucks with 2.35.....so after we watch em on mine i want to zoom em cause she hates the "really skinny movies".....since its for a 19" i dont think too much quality loss would matter too much....especially for a kid

looter

Let me just get this straight, do you want to make a 4:3 fullscreen or a 16:9 widescreen from the 2.35 source?

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-02-2005 10:32 PM:

sorry if im confusing you guys

i want to make a 16x9 widescreen out of 2.35 source

Posted by President on 01-03-2005 12:33 AM:

If your source is anamorphic 720 x 480 @ 2.35:1, you need to crop out the centre of the image at a resolution of around 512 x 340, give or take a little depending on the source.

You need to resize the cropped area to fill the screen @ 720 x 480, or whichever target resolution you need, and voila, there's your anamorphic video.

If your source is non-anamorphic 720 x 480, you are looking at a crop resolution of around 512 x 256.

If your source is 480 x 480, the crop resolution would be around 342 x 256.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-03-2005 03:14 AM:

the crop sizes you gave me are definitly working....thanx.....

the problem i am having though is in tmpgenc..ive been playing with the source aspect ratio in advanced menu and the video arrange options in the clip menu..but i can only letterbox the sides of the finished video instead of zooming in on the center

ie: i wind up with black bars on top.. bottom and sides now...i want to zoom in and eliminate the side bars

why do i always seem to wind up in uncharted territory?
looter

Posted by President on 01-03-2005 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
[B]the problem i am having though is in tmpgenc..ive been playing with the source aspect ratio in advanced menu and the video arrange options in the clip menu..but i can only letterbox the sides of the finished video instead of zooming in on the center

ie: i wind up with black bars on top.. bottom and sides now...i want to zoom in and eliminate the side bars

I don't get that. I just let the Source Aspect auto-detect, and then the crop/clip settings worked with the Video Arrange Method set to fullscreen. What's your Source Aspect set to?

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-03-2005 03:31 PM:

thanx for all your time on this and other threads pres

step 1 accomplished
this time i used your settings....except i used the center(keep aspect ratio) in the video arrange tab.....worked better for me
thank you

next problem
looks like im gonna have to work with vbrs now...im getting jumpy scenes(dont know how else to put it)..... the movie im doing is darkness dvdrip 480x480 to give you some idea of what needs to be done......according to bitrate viewer its a vbr of 1825min - 3062max....i tried running one scene(boy on a swing) at 1 pass and 2 pass.....even going as high as 4000 and i still get negative results

is there anything i can do?
looter

Posted by SilentAssassin on 01-03-2005 04:59 PM:

Check the framerate of the original file and the framerate you are encoding to. TmpegEnc sucks big style at adjusting the FR and will always result in jerky motion.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-03-2005 07:19 PM:

thanx assasin....

framerates are the same....im wondering if i drop frames from ntsc 29.7fps to ntsc film 23.976 if it might help the problem..... not in the mood to fuck with it right now...kinda burnt

zootedsnoozer

:edit
normally i would be using canopus procoder....but this time i cant get a video preview from these mpgs.........strange...usually tmpgenc that cant open shit

Posted by President on 01-03-2005 08:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
[B]thanx assasin....

framerates are the same....im wondering if i drop frames from ntsc 29.7fps to ntsc film 23.976 if it might help the problem.....

Your source is almost definitely not 29.97. If it's a movie, it will almost certainly be 23.976 with 3:2 pulldown enabled to make it look like 29.97. In which case you would need to remove the 3:2 pulldown/IVTC and encode at 23.97 with 3:2 Pulldown When Playback enabled.

... or encode it as 29.97 interlaced, not progressive, in TMPGenc. Both ways should work.

Unless your source is not a movie, but really is 29.97 interlaced. Encoding as such would solve the problem again.

It's extremely unlikely that it's 29.97 progressive, anyway.

... unless it's some crappy SVCD conversion, in which case you won't be able to do anything about it, but those are very rare these days.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 01:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by President
... unless it's some crappy SVCD conversion

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....thatd be my crappy conversion......i had already reencoded this from 25 fps to 29.97...thats why i was getting the stuttering during reencoding......

that said im taking a step back and i ll restart from the pal version....im guessing that i should reencode to 23.97 with 3:2 pulldown enabled...yes or no..also what about interlacing?

also it looks like im taking a step up from the little leagues to the minors.....if im going to continue this way i really should learn more about what im doing...does anyone have any good reference material to suggest?...websites or books are fine

zootedlearner

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 01:55 AM:

quote:
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....thatd be my crappy conversion......i had already reencoded this from 25 fps to 29.97...thats why i was getting the stuttering during reencoding......

Yep, that would be why.

quote:
that said im taking a step back and i ll restart from the pal version....im guessing that i should reencode to 23.97 with 3:2 pulldown enabled...yes or no..also what about interlacing?

Yes, 23.976 is the correct framerate. 3:2 pulldown is a process that duplicates fields to make it look like 29.97 and be NTSC compliant.. It's just a flag that tells the player what to do with the video, so it can be added and removed for conversion purposes and isn't encoded into the actual video. So yes, it should be enabled. I use pulldown.exe to add and remove it from files. Only MPEG2 files can have 3:2 pulldown.

You should only use interlaced if your source is true 50 or 60hz interlaced video. As a rule of thumb, movies and TV shows are (almost) always 23.976, while stuff that's been rocorded on video or is live will be 29.97i. This would include the news, talkshows, sporting events, etc, etc.

quote:
also it looks like im taking a step up from the little leagues to the minors.....if im going to continue this way i really should learn more about what im doing...does anyone have any good reference material to suggest?...websites or books are fine

www.videohelp.com and doom9.org are quite handy, but it might be a bit tricky to trawl through all the stuff there and find what's relevant to you.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 05:14 AM:

you may say im wrong for this but....

i ran the problematic scene through 4 different variables..and watched through zoomplayer...

23.97 pulldown enabled progressive
23.97 pulldown enabled interlaced
29.97 pulldown disabled progressive
29.97 pulldown disabled interlaced

the first 3 gave me interlacing lines as the kid swung across the screen which will later result in jerky video on my standalone

29.97 interlace was the only one that gave me a smooth picture..any idea why?

so heres another crappy svcd conversion from the looter
haha

as far as those sites go....theyre great for guides and forums but your right......its almost impossible to find anything relevent...i need a good reference guide that covers all the basics

thanx again for all the help.....i can almost garuntee youll be seeing me again soon....if you can think of anything i might of done wrong on this last shot keep the thread open

zootedlater

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 05:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
[B]you may say im wrong for this but....

i ran the problematic scene through 4 different variables..and watched through zoomplayer...

23.97 pulldown enabled progressive
23.97 pulldown enabled interlaced
29.97 pulldown disabled progressive
29.97 pulldown disabled interlaced

the first 3 gave me interlacing lines as the kid swung across the screen which will later result in jerky video on my standalone

29.97 interlace was the only one that gave me a smooth picture..any idea why?

If 29.97 interlaced gave you the smoothest playback, chances are your original source was 25 interlaced. Converting this to 29.97 interlaced would introduce a little bit of blurring, but there should be no jerkiness.

What exactly is your source? Is it a movie? TV? Where did you get it? Don't need specifics on that one, it would just help to know if it's something you downloaded or something you recorded yourself.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 06:03 AM:

dvdrip dl from the newsgroups

:edit
i just looked twciso released this as an ntsc svcd and a pal dvdr.....i got it as pal svcd....someone must have fucked with it

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 06:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
dvdrip dl from the newsgroups

:edit
i just looked twciso released this as an ntsc svcd and a pal dvdr.....i got it as pal svcd....someone must have fucked with it

You haven't ticked 3:2 pulldown under the Advanced tab, have you? That's an extremely common mistake. It has to be the ticked under the Video tab where you set the frame rate, resolution, bit rate, etc.

It's very possible that the SVCD you have is a bad conversion, and there's nothing you can do about it. That would certainly be consistent with the fact that it looked best when converted to 29.97 interlaced.

Actually, tell me exactly what the movie is. I want to get this sorted out now. If necessarry, I will download a bit of it and have a look myself

PM me if you don't want to post it in the forum.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 08:05 AM:

from the nfo
specifics sent via pm

Darkness DVDrip
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Information
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Type.................: Movie
Platform.............: Stand Alone or Pc
Part Size............: 15,000,000
Number of Parts......: Cd1 51 / Cd2 51
Compression Format...: RAR
File Validation......: SFV
Image Format.........: .bin + .cue
Image Created with...: Vcd Easy
Burn Tested..........: Yes
Special CDR..........: Requires 700 MB / 80 Min CDR

Video Format.........: MPEG2
Source...............: DVD 16x9
Original Format......: PAL
Genre................: Horror
Movie Information....: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0273517...;fc=1;ft=9;fm=1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post Information
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted on............: 12/28/2004

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Release Notes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***Sample Provided By TMPGEnc****
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pulled this from a german dvd vobs...ripped out all language except english and
re-encoded to svcd. I left it in the orginal format of Pal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIDEO INFO:
- Encoder: Cinema Craft Encoder 2.67.0.27
- Encoding mode: Multipass VBR
- Passes: 4
- Max. bitrate: 2408
- Avg. bitrate: 2023
- Min. bitrate: 300
- Bias: 20
- Image Quality Prio: 17
- Antinoise filter: No
- Linear quant. scale: Yes
- Zigzag scan order: Yes
- Upper field first: No
- Progressive frames: Yes
- iDCT Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX
- Deinterlace: None
- Pulldown: No
- Width: 480
- Height: 576

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes i did tick pulldown under advanced....in my version there is none under video tab......2.521.58.169

the scene i am using as reference is at 8:49 - 8:56 boy on a swing

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 08:35 AM:

quote:
yes i did tick pulldown under advanced....in my version there is none under video tab......2.521.58.169

There's your problem, then. I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner. You wouldn't believe how many people make that mistake. Undoubtedly because the setting under the video tab is so well hidden.

Why are you converting to NTSC, btw? All DVD players are quite happy to play PAL and NTSC SVCDs. Let's assume you want to keep it PAL and just do the crop/resize/16:9 thing. All you need to do is load the PAL template into TMPGenc, do your crops, and encode it as PAL progressive. You could even do interlace, it doesn't matter too much. 3:2 pulldown is not used with PAL at all.

If you definitely want to convert to NTSC, load the NTSC (FILM) template). If you haven't got it, use the normal NTSC, but change Encode Mode under the video tab to 3:2 pulldown when playback. If it's locked, right-click it and unlock it.

Then set the frame rate to 23.976 (29.97 internally). This frame rate will only be available after encode mode is set correctly.

I am confident this will do the trick, as long as you untick 3:2 under the advanced tab. EDIT: Just downloaded the sample. It's a good conversion, interlaced PAL, but progressive frames. A straight PAL->PAL encode with your custom crop will work just fine, as will the NTSC conversion I explained. Your crop settings will probably have to change a little to compensate for the different res. My numbers were based on NTSC source. Let me know if you need any help with that.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 03:01 PM:

i ran the all variables again as a double check just in case of any errors while encoding them before ....but this time in addition i dropped the 3:2 pulldown in advanced tab....

ive always used the templates for 23.97 and 29.97....
when using 23.97 template it sets the video tab for 3:2 already....therefore enabling it under advanced was giving me the worst results(maybe doubling the tools function)....
but again my best results actually were in 29.97 and interlaced gave me the smoothest....

like you said...the video must be 25 interlaced....reading the info.. under deinterlace it states none

i convert to ntsc because i have a bunch of dvd players and some are old...in addition i travel with videos wherever we go to keep the kid happy....and i need them to work wherever i wind up..plus it gives me something to do while the kid is watching the same fuckin thing every fuckin day.......helps me tune out elmo...

if you do get the to time grab the movie and check it out....let me know what you find.....i would run the pal video through procoder to see what happens but 1.5 doexnt have a 23.97 option and i cant find a good crack for 2.0....hint hint...PM?....dont ban me NS....i ll be lost without you....hah...i dont think the riaa or anyone else has the attention span to make it this far into the thread anyway......theyre too busy browsing on kazaa

pres.....you got the patience of a fuckin saint....
looter

:edit again

i just read your last post again and mustve missed your edit....i dont remember what the sample was (i dont think i can redownload with agent)..but it was a specific scene i saw a prolem with...
just in case you do check it out yourself(dont have to...youve done more than enough) ..... you might have missed this at the bottom of the last post....

:the scene i am using as reference is at 8:49 - 8:56 boy on a swing:

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 05:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by President
Your crop settings will probably have to change a little to compensate for the different res. My numbers were based on NTSC source. Let me know if you need any help with that.

i didnt see anything wrong on my tv but it looks letterboxed on the sides on zplayer...i ll run it again...what should i crop to....i did some googling and saw a formula i didnt quite pick up....do you know it?

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 06:02 PM:

I only grabbed the sample of a guy in a car, there's rain, clips of a guy in pool. It's definitely progressive frames, as stated in the .nfo, but the encode mode is set to interlaced. With PAL, that doesn't actually matter as long as the frames are progressive, so that's no biggie.

The way to convert it to NTSC is simply to change the frame rate to 23.976 and encode as NTSC film. I foolishly assumed that TMPGenc would change the frame rate correctly when using a template with that frame rate, but being the vile, useless, disgusting piece of sh*t that it is (pardon my French), it just drops frames like crazy to fit the new time. So if you want to convert to 23.976, the best way is to change the frame rate externally in VdubMod or AviSynth and just frame serve it into TMPGenc. I just did that, and it worked perfectly. You would need to stretch the audio to fit manually, though. BeSweet has a very handy option to do this.

Still, you really don't need to convert to NTSC even for compatibility with older players. 99.9999999% of all DVD players that play SVCD in the first place won't give a toss about whether it's PAL or NTSC. DVD format is another story because of region encoding, but SVCD and VCDs are fine.

As for the kid on the swing, any PAL to NTSC conversion will have interlaced lines when viewed on a PC monitor, unless you use real-time deinterlacing. The only exception being if it's 23.976 without 3:2 pulldown, which actually works with SVCD, but it will just have 3:2 added real-time by your DVD player during playback.

I only downloaded the sample, but it's virtually impossible for the guy who did it to have messed up just a few or a single scene, so I am sure the kid on the swing will be alright once you burn it and play it on your TV. I would still recommend you leave it as PAL, but like I said, changing the frame rate externally and using BeSweet for the audio will do the trick, it's just a bit more work, and an unnecessary re-encode/quality drop for the audio.

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 06:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter
i didnt see anything wrong on my tv but it looks letterboxed on the sides on zplayer...i ll run it again...what should i crop to....i did some googling and saw a formula i didnt quite pick up....do you know it?

The crop settings should be 362 x 324, or 59 off the sides and 126 off the top and bottom. That will give you anamorphic fullscreen.

Posted by ZootedLooter on 01-04-2005 09:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by President
but being the vile, useless, disgusting piece of sh*t that it is

I agree

quote:
Still, you really don't need to convert to NTSC even for compatibility with older players. 99.9999999% of all DVD players that play SVCD in the first place won't give a toss about whether it's PAL or NTSC. DVD format is another story because of region encoding, but SVCD and VCDs are fine.

i convert everything with svcd2dvd after i finish...its a cheat i know but im gonna start converting the right way...the dvd players i have that dont play svcd keep the 480x480 ar on output with svcd2dvd conversions....that leaves me with a half screen of vidoe.....they also dont have internal converters and play black and white pal...ive heard the cheap dvd player argument alot...but i do it to learn the video field as a way out in case i get fed up with construction work

quote:
I am sure the kid on the swing will be alright once you burn it and play it on your TV. I would still recommend you leave it as PAL, but like I said, changing the frame rate externally and using BeSweet for the audio will do the trick, it's just a bit more work, and an unnecessary re-encode/quality drop for the audio.

I did burn all of my test runs and watched em..23.97 still had a slight jekiness to it...im gonna finish this one up at 29.97 and next time i ll run it the right way..im burnt on this one....i already know how to convert the audio with besweet

looter

thanx again....i m in btwn work right now and these past three days kept me busy....i wouldve been bored shitless watching kid tv all day otherwise

Posted by President on 01-04-2005 10:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by zootedlooter thanx again....i m in btwn work right now and these past three days kept me busy....i wouldve been bored shitless watching kid tv all day otherwise [/B]

Glad I could (sort of) help

Btw, if you are planning to do lots of conversions like this, you might want to look at AviSynth. It's awesome, and it's what all the cool kids use. Some people are put off by it being script-based, but it's not too difficult.

There's an excellent webpage out there that explains the various methods with example scripts. I think it's called "standards conversions on the cheap" or something like that. Try Google'ing it.

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